“0 0 3 I am glad to. 20 Mr. Baron. There may be one way you can help right now. 21 I know that before we. started today Bill Miller, the Staff 22 Director of the Committee, indicated that the Committee would 23 be interested in hearing you out at great length on policy ”
“4 * -P •. : Frograms of the CIA and ■ T that are conducted inside the SiUnited States both from the standpoint of their legality. Now I think it’s possible to consolidate those recommend- tions so that we don’t say it twice, and I also think it's possible to take out an”
“W— -NNNW- 4 1 air too, I would expect. 2 Before we get into the substance here, I understand that our new mandate is if possible to complete ours no later than 4 Friday. So we're going to try to shoot for tomorrow. 5 What the Chairman would like to do would be for us to”
“cutive session, and you may request that the Committee convene such a session to hear your response. If the Committee were to insist upon your testimony at this point, you are entitled to request that the Committee grant you an opportunity to confer with the Director of Central I”
“TOP SECRET 39 1 Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that maybe 2 perhaps we use this type of part of .the investigation and what 3 we know from certain of the other files to prohibit this type 4 of conduct by law in the future in our general recommendations? 5 ' Sen”
“0f . NCR ha § 5 Senator Huddleston. Tthink it’s probably material to also to have a firmer granr when, we start discussing- and defending the report maybe, even to the extent of having specific figures. I think it's highly unlikely that they will let that stay 5 in ther”
“66 knowing. 2 .Mr. Kirbow. Bill because you and I both know Senator o Mathias’s previous intentions stated in the letter to the 4 Chairman, was there somewhere a discussion about releasing 5 this piecemeal ahead of time that might. that should go on the 6 record here? ”
“oversight committee 21 should pursue this Question further would be sufficient. r 22 Senator Huddleston. Well, paragraph 22 over on 39. 23 if applied to the FRD, would be a pretty good approach, I think. Mr. Aaron. That would not necessarily rule out it 24 25 would no”
“egislation. I would like, because of the specia l ex pe rti se of thi s w itn ess , if co uns el wil l withhold for just a moment, say a word or two about the process that we are engaged in. First, we commend you for your long years of service I to a very, very important agency o”
“gas hi 235M 3*N8 * bi '1 quickly. 2 Mr. Aaron. I would recommend that we accept the suggestion that we put this in a positive sense and proceed - 4 on that basis and clarify the word penetrate and the fact 5 that it is the domestic aspect. 6 Mr. Kirbow. Could ye ask the”
“sently exists is worded. 8 9 10 11 1 2 13 14 15 16 be able to present to the committee, at the ne xt session, a sort of preamble to the resolution stating what I s ubmit would be the appropriate basis for this investigation, so that if and when the ma tt er of the constitutionali”
“W-”• o*P•% 85 ; for this paragraph, that Be review and that he advise the President and the committee if in his opinion any of these practices violate the Co istitutional rights of American citizens ■ *.! or any other laws. 5 Mr. Kirbow. 1 I would fee I. much better abou”
“es primarily to apprise the employee of his or her dilemma. OGC will request further advice from the Attorney General. Should the most pessimistic development come to pass, the situation will be more political than legal. The رد fact is that time is of the essence, and any stretc”
“uld like to bring to the 24 attent ion of the committee, if I may, there is a question 25. NW 66 000 Docld:32266459 Page 5 376 377 * 1 in my mind, as your chief counsel, with regard to the present σ 2 resol uti on that exists concerning the au thri ty as the base 3 for this commi”
“io n stating what I submit would be the appropriate basis for th is i nve sti gat ion , s o t hat if and when the matter of the constitutionality arises, we 17 are properly and fully bottomed. But I would not do that unless 18. given such direction by the committee. 19 ດ Frankly,”
“appreciate those suggestions, But in summary the release of the CIA records in accordance with the general outline contained in this resolution would not damage any current CIA operations; is that correct? 10”
“people, including people 22 who are and have been for some time proscribed by CIA's own 23 Senator Huddleston. Well, anyway, that would be worked 24 out in the statute itself. 25 Mr. Aaron. We are spared the problem. . TewEA CEADLT NW 50955 - DocId: 32423513 Page 33”
“***** Iconcern that it not iliete that we had found seme evidence 2 that we had just not revealed. e Mr. Bader. Perhans it would be helpful. Senator, but nt the same time the Administration has come forward with 5 Language of all political assassinations, which seems to ”
“- S’ r 1 Now the next paragraph C Mr. Kirbow. Could *‘8 take these one at a time because these are rather critical? 1 Mr. Chairman, one of the things that came before this r; Committee when I guess it was Hr. Colby testifying and at each 6 meeting that Mr. Miller and ”
“h *** r ! D r -: E D IN C S Senator Huddleston •ot is come to order. Mr. Aaron. The agenda today is to proceed with the DCI i 4■ I section and in addition we would like to get the Subcommittee’s : 5 if you will substantive arrroval of the paper on the production j o”
“TOP SECRET 72 .1 note that back on page 67 where we have struck out the reference 2 to Mr. Raborn and intend to expand on the pressures having 5 been brought to bear, part of that expansion should include 4 a statement’ that there is no — or that the Federal Disposal 5 ”
“ion that exists concerning the authrity as the base 3 for this committee to operate on. Th ere is in my opinion 4 5 6 7 a grave question of constitutionality, not with regard to the ability of the Congress to be investigating, but with regard to the way in which the resolution th”
“TOP SECRET .71 1 be raised since the Federal Disposal of Property Act would not 2 have applied which would have flagged that legally to any other 3 agency. 4 Mr. Aaron. It would also strengthen the Agency's hand- to - 5 resist those purposes, to just simply say, hey, th”
“*d%K8h Mr. Aaron. That lnot what we want to convey and so 9 vou are correct. Mr. Kirbow. They should review the policies and goals 4 and requirements. really. 5 Mr. diGenova. How about policy at the end of the first gion tence? 7 Mr. Aaron. Human intelligence collec”
“receiving your initial response, by December 9, that designates your Agency Compliance Official and includes your statement regarding your position with respect to the provisions outlined in this letter. To the extent that you have any questions or suggestions regarding the Co”
“s•0„ 2/1%K a: a 121■ Mr. Kirbow. Senator thn individuals, we don’t have any 2 great big record that there were rogue agents out there in the FBI doing this. There ware rogue policies down at the ' headquarter ‘% Now if you have the same kind of, rogue policy in a new 5a”
“TOP SECRET 4 1 and inquiry into it has been thorough, and I think we know this 2 well. There is no dispute from the Agency. 5. Senator Huddleston., Weil, is the law inconsistent with 4 the statute on the information service? 5 Mr. Bader. It is the same .thing. I would r”
“TOP SECRET 40 1 our recommendations. -dlb 2 Mr. Aaron. Okay. begin 2a 3 Mr. Maxwell. Well, Charlie, correct me. I think the 4 proprietary section would be the appropriate section because 5 that would be where it came up most,,unless there is another 6 one that you see mo”
“ddress the problem. 2 : : NW 65924 Docld:32401055 Page 3 E2, IMPDET CL by 13190 SERBET 21663. SECRET 5. I noted that I had written asking for an up-to-date statement of the internal practice of access within the HSCA staff. I knew that they observed a need-to-know principle and i”
““r -iF. i 45 re agreed upon at the Tfevpl that were left out. Mr. Aaron. I have on here. Mr. Kirbow. Well just for your information, there intents to be 'several things which were not just an occasional |one but several things that were agreed on at the staff level t”
“That would be th... in rossson that would think that you would move the DCI nra, from that. Senator Mathias. But it does not appear to me that you • exonerate vour national intelligence officer, whatever you Bicall him, just .because, you have someone else you can also po”
“TOP SECRET 17 1 that you gave, Charlie. 2 Mr. Kirbow. No, ir, it doesn't here. 3 Mr. Bader. Only if he is affiliated with that group. 4 Mr. Kirbow. His affiliation covers anybody who is an 5 American citizen is forever and hereafter would be prohibited, if 6 it goes i”
“TOP SECRET 38 1 fowl of the other. 2 Senator Huddleston. I think; we've already said that ■ 3 pressures sometimes were brought to bear and we make recommenda- 4 tions to correct that. 5 Ms. Culbreath. Mr. Chairman, could I suggest that maybe if 6 we do delete that, tha”
“q‘1 70 g A, KM SECRET 70 Then the question arose about the deadline on the 15th fl and the-Chairman is going to ask that this deadline be set aside because of the problems of not being able to finish 4 security and those other matters. 5 So he is taking steps to do that ”
“-h>- 1. |le operating head. You know, that can he a dissipation of his accountability!. You have a man that is so involved in so many other things that some nameless person is under him calling the shots. But 5' if we were to move him away from that, then that nameless ”
“TOP SECRET 8 . 1. Mr. Kirbow. Well, perhaps I misunderstand the extension 2 that you, your full recommendation. 5 Do you want to go beyond where the administration is in 4 their position? 5 Mr. Bader. I am recommending to go beyond where the '6 Administration is at th”
“#4 0G00 ; I would certainly want to know whether or not the chief: 2 law enforcement officer of the country thought they were legal or illegal, or if there was a question about it. 1 Senator Mathias. I have a real question if I were 5 Attorney General whether I would si”
“Sdoxes Gil TOP SECRET 109 -6000 12 Phone (Area 202) 1 They have fgivemussa good many documents, doThey nets. 2 have not given us the documents on the controversial matters. 3 They’ve given us plenty of documentation on less controversial 4 matters. 5 The Chairman. I t”
“is that the Committee 24 recommend that the CIA, by regulation, handle this matter 25 rather than make it statutory. TOP SECRET WARQ & PAUL NW 50955 DocId:32423521 Page 32”
“Ivr ootm GoMo. Ea L 21 1 Senator Tower. That is not a law, that is a regulation. 2 Mr. Aaron. And CIA's own regulation. o The Chairman. But then it was adopted as part of the law, 4 I thought you said. 5 Mr. Bader. No, sir. I said it has been made public 6 through the”
“receiving your initial response, by December 9, that designates your Agency Compliance Official and includes your statement regarding your position with respect to the provisions outlined in this letter. To the extent that you have any questions or suggestions regarding the Co”
“e" .1% ^• 28 Itis all de novo when itignup to the Full Committee anyway Mr. Kirbow. I simply indicated to the Chairman earlier that I didn't Want to have a reservation like that and not point it out to him because I didn’t want the absent member E to appear to be sandbag”
“TOP SECRET 53 1 there, giving the Committee authority to establish guidelines, 2 to establish for large proprietaries, should they become 5 necessary. 4 You could also make the statement there that the Committee 5 may call for a. GAO audit periodically. 6 Mr. diGenova.”
“the intelligence 21 community to help him in the task of establishing these requiremen Now this is, an increase in .his authority from his current posture. He has feyt.o the authority to issue didance 20 in the preparation of rociremonts but he can’t really say do Ithis”
“Senate, and they will seize on it because today 22 they don't do it for anybody else but the Appropriations 23 Committee. 24 Senator Huddleston. I think that's reasonable^ enough. 25 It ought to be clear. TA0 PADRT HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 66”
“TOP SECRET 55 1 report to the oversight committee as well as such independent ■ 2 GAO audits' as the committee shall direct. As part of its 5 annual report to 'the .oversight Committee"' — "As part of its 4. report to the oversight Committee, the CIA shall report," and 5”
“TOP SECRET 27 1' arrangement we had previously, that is to say, that none of 2 this is final, and certainly not until we hear the comments a of the Agency. 4 Is that still observed? 5 The Chairman. Yes, that is still the situation. Nothing 6 becomes final until the fi”
“exception, I would have told you up until the beginning of this current public discussion, that 24 was the way it went, and that nothing went outside it, and 25 that the Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agencies, with TOP SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32123106 Page 2.”
“classified to outside, non-governmental review. It is against this background that, in response to the committee's request, I cite our few technical reservations about the mechanism established by the joint resolution to achieve this same result. I intend to address only Inte”
“5*H5* i / Mr. Davis. Ho’s os-horizgl. He doesn’t have to. Mr. Kirbow. He’s authorized to have a staff under the President’s executive order or in any other normal course of business. 5 i This appears to be dipring down below the kind of - 6 statutory authority positi”